Wikia Move/Community poll
The Wikia move is generating a lot of negative reactions. This page is intended to consolidate the viewpoints and to gauge the amount of support for each viewpoint. Please endorse all statements you support, or write your own summary. You may also indicate opposition to a view, but also consider another statement if your point of view is not represented here. * This page is not intended for the community to "control" the sale of GameWikis to Wikia, which has already happened. It is merely a place for concise summaries of the major points of view, with an indication of the level of support for each view. Those who object to the sale or wish to seek remedies, legal or otherwise, for (perceived or actual) wrongs should contact the involved parties directly. * In order for this page to be useful, it has to be concise. Please avoid repetition. * THIS IS NOT A VOTE! __TOC__ GuildWiki is non-commercial This is not a matter of concensus, really. The license makes it clear that no-one is able to profit from this except to keep the servers active. That means no personal gain. Users who endorse this view # BftP 19:10, 14 September 2007 (CDT) # The Imperialist 19:29, 14 September 2007 (CDT) # Alari 19:47, 14 September 2007 (CDT) # Lord Belar 19:50, 14 September 2007 (CDT) # --image:GEO-logo.png[[user:Jioruji_Derako| Ĵ'ĩôřũĵĩ 'Đēŗāķō.>']][[user talk:Jioruji Derako|.cнаt^']] 21:11, 14 September 2007 (CDT) #--image:Hrothgarsig.jpg (talk) 03:30, 15 September 2007 (CDT) # — HarshLanguage 04:14, 15 September 2007 (CDT) # [[User:Mgrinshpon|'—ǥrɩɳsɧ']][[User talk:Mgrinshpon|'ƿoɲ']] 06:09, 15 September 2007 (CDT) # Toxik 06:51, 15 September 2007 (CDT) # 84.145.201.229 08:03, 15 September 2007 (CDT) # --- 24.158.97.168 # Jugalator [AB] 16:37, 15 September 2007 (CDT) # Silver Sunlight 17:58, 15 September 2007 (CDT) # Edru viransu 19:05, 15 September 2007 (CDT) # Gordon Ecker 21:22, 15 September 2007 (CDT) # –Ichigo724 23:26, 15 September 2007 (CDT) # (T/ ) 00:07, 16 September 2007 (CDT) # (Talk) ( ) 00:16, 16 September 2007 (CDT) /agree #Dunkoro 04:47, 16 September 2007 (CDT) # -Auron 04:56, 16 September 2007 (CDT) #Jelmewnema 05:07, 16 September 2007 (CDT) #Icy Hot Ben 16:35, 16 September 2007 (CDT) #Merengue 22:01, 16 September 2007 (CDT) # 16:16, 17 September 2007 (CDT) #-- bcstingg (talk • ) 15:01, 18 September 2007 (CDT) Users who are neutral #What? —[[User:ShadyGuy|'S'''hadyGuy]] 14:58, 16 September 2007 (CDT) Phil (Gravewit) is entitled to recoup his financial losses hosting the GuildWiki While the GuildWiki is not a commercial entity, it is not a charity either. Gravewit is entitled to recover all money he has lost hosting this site. This includes lost income from his time commitment. There is nothing illegal about running ads ''per se, or selling the Guildwiki to Wikia per se, as long as Gravewit simply recovers his losses. Users who endorse this view # BftP 19:10, 14 September 2007 (CDT) # Alari 19:47, 14 September 2007 (CDT) # Lord Belar 19:50, 14 September 2007 (CDT) # Gordon Ecker 21:22, 15 September 2007 (CDT) # (T/ ) 00:07, 16 September 2007 (CDT) (recoup as in, break even) # (Talk) ( ) 00:17, 16 September 2007 (CDT) (what Entropy said, not to make any sort of profit, though) # Same as entropy Silver Sunlight 05:35, 16 September 2007 (CDT) # -User:PanSola (talk to the ) 04:28, 18 September 2007 (CDT) Recoup as in, donations + advertisement income + Wikia money = server & bandwidth costs Users who are neutral # --image:GEO-logo.png[[user:Jioruji_Derako| Ĵ'ĩôřũĵĩ 'Đēŗāķō.>']][[user talk:Jioruji Derako|.cнаt^']] 21:12, 14 September 2007 (CDT) # Silver Sunlight 17:59, 15 September 2007 (CDT) # –Ichigo724 23:26, 15 September 2007 (CDT) Users who do NOT endorse this view # The Imperialist 19:29, 14 September 2007 (CDT) # Jugalator [AB] 16:44, 15 September 2007 (CDT) commitement was solely out of personal choice and there is no "entitlement" I can see here to use the NC-licensed site content for profit # Edru viransu 19:05, 15 September 2007 (CDT) # -Auron 04:56, 16 September 2007 (CDT). This is a wiki about a game, not a job or monetary investment (as evidenced by the license of this wiki). He is not entitled to recoup money spent out of his own pocket. # — HarshLanguage 05:52, 16 September 2007 (CDT) Gravewit hasn't had any "losses." He's had profits. The money he's earned off GuildWiki ads, even before the Wikia sale, has certainly more than covered his costs. #—[[User:ShadyGuy|'S'''hadyGuy]] 14:59, 16 September 2007 (CDT) #Merengue 22:06, 16 September 2007 (CDT) is entitled at best to the losses directly involved in the acquisition of the domain, and any other out-of-pocket expenses, in my opinion. Time, however, is worthless. Priceless would be a more artistic term, but the point remains, his time is worth no more than those of, say, the sysops, my own, or anyone else's in the community. To put it another way, if I donate time at any non-profit organization, the only deduction I can put on my tax return are the price of gas, and a few other direct expenses, even if the services rendered by me are professional, and worth quite a fair sum. #*OK, I'm convinced. Line about time is crossed out. BftP 02:30, 17 September 2007 (CDT) # 16:18, 17 September 2007 (CDT) Phil (Gravewit) or Wikia should disclose details of GuildWiki's finances Much of the apparent community outrage stems from Gravewit's secrecy about the monies involved. Gravewit or Wikia should publicly declare the GuildWiki's valuation to end the rampant speculation on how much Gravewit has personally profited from the transfer. Users who endorse this view # BftP 19:10, 14 September 2007 (CDT) # The Imperialist 19:29, 14 September 2007 (CDT) # Alari 19:47, 14 September 2007 (CDT) # Lord Belar 19:50, 14 September 2007 (CDT) # --image:GEO-logo.png[[user:Jioruji_Derako| 'Ĵ'ĩôřũĵĩ 'Đ'ēŗāķō.'>']][[user talk:Jioruji Derako|.cнаt''^]] 21:11, 14 September 2007 (CDT) # --image:Hrothgarsig.jpg (talk) 03:31, 15 September 2007 (CDT) # — HarshLanguage 04:14, 15 September 2007 (CDT) # [[User:Mgrinshpon|'—ǥrɩɳsɧ']][[User talk:Mgrinshpon|'ƿoɲ']] 06:08, 15 September 2007 (CDT) # Toxik 06:53, 15 September 2007 (CDT) # 84.145.201.229 08:02, 15 September 2007 (CDT) # Mightywayne 17:14, 15 September 2007 (CDT) # Edru viransu 19:05, 15 September 2007 (CDT) # Gordon Ecker 21:22, 15 September 2007 (CDT) # –Ichigo724 23:26, 15 September 2007 (CDT) # (T/ ) 00:07, 16 September 2007 (CDT) # (Talk) ( ) 00:16, 16 September 2007 (CDT) # -Auron 04:56, 16 September 2007 (CDT) The wiki should have had a treasurer or similar from the beginning. #Jelmewnema 05:10, 16 September 2007 (CDT) # Silver Sunlight 05:36, 16 September 2007 (CDT) #Dunkoro 13:04, 16 September 2007 (CDT) #—[[User:ShadyGuy|'S'''hadyGuy]] 15:00, 16 September 2007 (CDT) #Merengue 22:08, 16 September 2007 (CDT) #--Dragonaxe 03:05, 17 September 2007 (CDT) nothing more than for the users to know. # 16:19, 17 September 2007 (CDT) #-- bcstingg (talk • ) 15:02, 18 September 2007 (CDT) Users who are neutral # User:PanSola (talk to the ) 04:35, 18 September 2007 (CDT) Gravewit should disclose the full ledger up until GuildWiki acquisition by Wikia, including all expenses and all revenue, not including how much Wikia paid him. Phil (Gravewit) had retained full ownership of all tangible GameWikis assets Until the transfer to Wikia, Gravewit was the sole owner of the server(s) and the GameWikis domain names. Being personal property, he has always had the right to do with them as he pleased, including sell them to a second party. Any donations received by Gravewit were never intended to transfer equity in GameWikis to the donaters. All agreements, verbal or otherwise, between Gravewit and third parties that were not concluded with legally binding contracts are not, and were never, operative. The Creative Commons by-nc-sa 2.0 is a ''distribution license covering the content of the GameWikis wikis, not an ownership contract covering any tangible GameWikis assets. The contents of the wikis are not, and have never been, GameWikis assets. Users who endorse this view # 193.52.24.125 23:38, 14 September 2007 (CDT) #—[[User:ShadyGuy|'S'''hadyGuy]] 15:01, 16 September 2007 (CDT) # User:PanSola (talk to the ) 04:32, 18 September 2007 (CDT) minus the GuildWiki domain name which is Martin's. -User:PanSola (talk to the ) 04:32, 18 September 2007 (CDT) Users who are neutral # Gordon Ecker 21:22, 15 September 2007 (CDT) (Gravewit owned the server(s) and the contents of the wikis are not, and have never been, GameWikis assets, but a verbal contract is still a contract, as for the issue of domain name ownership, I can't make an informed statement on the issue without knowing the facts) # (T/ ) 00:07, 16 September 2007 (CDT) (what Gordon said, and need to hear more from folks like Martin Lightbringer before being able to determine the true nature of "ownership" here.) # 16:20, 17 September 2007 (CDT) Users who do NOT endorse this view # The Imperialist 09:27, 15 September 2007 (CDT) # Lord Belar 17:07, 15 September 2007 (CDT) # 84.145.201.240 14:54, 16 September 2007 (CDT) The legality of the transfer to Wikia depends on what was sold Because the Creative Commons by-nc-sa 2.0 is a distribution license, all contributors retain perpetual original copyright on their contributions. Gravewit is prevented from selling these contributions for personal profit according to clause 4© of the license. However, he is allowed to sell all GameWikis assets that he owns. As long as Wikia has not given any money to Gravewit in exchange for the database, which Gravewit does not own, the sale cannot be illegal on licensing terms. Users who endorse this view # 193.52.24.125 23:38, 14 September 2007 (CDT) # Lucielle 22:11, 14 September 2007 (PST) # The Imperialist 09:26, 15 September 2007 (CDT) # Jugalator [AB] 16:38, 15 September 2007 (CDT) # Lord Belar 17:08, 15 September 2007 (CDT) # Edru viransu 19:05, 15 September 2007 (CDT) # Gordon Ecker 21:22, 15 September 2007 (CDT) # (T/ ) 00:07, 16 September 2007 (CDT) # -Auron 04:56, 16 September 2007 (CDT) # Silver Sunlight 05:38, 16 September 2007 (CDT) #Dunkoro 13:04, 16 September 2007 (CDT) # 84.145.201.240 14:54, 16 September 2007 (CDT) # --image:GEO-logo.png[[user:Jioruji_Derako| 'Ĵ'ĩôřũĵĩ 'Đ'ēŗāķō.'>']][[user talk:Jioruji Derako|.cнаt''^]] 21:55, 16 September 2007 (CDT) #Merengue 22:09, 16 September 2007 (CDT) Reservations: See Talk. # 16:21, 17 September 2007 (CDT) # User:PanSola (talk to the ) 04:37, 18 September 2007 (CDT) The content on the Wiki is technically available for free. Gravewit can sell the "tangible assets" he owns, which might not include the GuildWiki domain name. -User:PanSola (talk to the ) 04:37, 18 September 2007 (CDT) Users who do NOT endorse this view #--24.206.111.186 07:59, 15 September 2007 (CDT) Users who find this view to be legalistic mumbo jumbo # Yes, through the twin miracles of lawyers and accountants we might somehow come to see this sale as "legal". But at the end of the day GuildWiki would have no value whatsoever if not for the contents of the database. BftP 02:33, 17 September 2007 (CDT) The use of CC-NC content prohibits GameWikis or the owner from turning a profit If GameWikis, either through ad revenue or sales, earned a single dime of profit, then GameWikis is (was) a commercial enterprise and in breach of the Creative Commons by-nc-sa 2.0 license. Furthermore, Wikia as a for-profit commercial enterprise cannot host CC-NC content to earn revenue. The use of an NC license is meant, in spirit, as insurance against the very situation this wiki finds itself in. Users who endorse this view #--24.206.111.186 05:44, 15 September 2007 (CDT) # [[User:Mgrinshpon|'—ǥrɩɳsɧ']][[User talk:Mgrinshpon|'ƿoɲ']] 06:08, 15 September 2007 (CDT) # 84.145.201.229 08:01, 15 September 2007 (CDT) # The Imperialist 09:27, 15 September 2007 (CDT) # Lord Belar 17:08, 15 September 2007 (CDT) # Gordon Ecker 21:22, 15 September 2007 (CDT) # –Ichigo724 23:26, 15 September 2007 (CDT) # (T/ ) 00:07, 16 September 2007 (CDT) (at least until someone from Wikia can find a loophope in the license) # (Talk) ( ) 00:15, 16 September 2007 (CDT) # -Auron 04:56, 16 September 2007 (CDT) #Jelmewnema 05:11, 16 September 2007 (CDT) # Silver Sunlight 05:39, 16 September 2007 (CDT) # Toxik 07:01, 16 September 2007 (CDT) # Merengue 22:14, 16 September 2007 (CDT) Users who are neutral # The key phrase in 4.c. is "primarily intended for". If ads are placed on the site to pay the hosting bills, and happen to generate more revenue than needed, it's arguable that the site is still not "primarily intended for" monetary compensation even if it's earning a profit. However, the license clearly rules out something such as use by commercial entities that plan for, and receive, a net profit on every page view. -- bcstingg (talk • ) 15:28, 18 September 2007 (CDT) Users who do NOT endorse this view #CC by-nc-sa content can be distributed by for-profit ventures. The only restriction is that the licensed content itself not be distributed for profit. Wikia runs many wikis that use nc licenses. BftP 09:14, 15 September 2007 (CDT) # User:PanSola (talk to the ) 04:42, 18 September 2007 (CDT) I can set up a website, put ads on it, make 30 bucks, and that does NOT make me a "commercial enterprise". Wikia can receive advertisement income via NC content, as long as they do not keep anything over what's needed to break even with the cost of hosting it (even if they are a for-profit commercial enterprise). The use of CC-NC content prohibits ads altogether BY-CC-NC prohibits all forms of financial gain, even if it is being raised for the cost of paying for/maintaining the servers. That means that no money can be generated on a wiki, no matter what. Users who do NOT endorse this view #Gordon Ecker 20:54, 16 September 2007 (CDT) #Hosting a by-nc-sa wiki is not a financial suicide pact. BftP 02:35, 17 September 2007 (CDT) # 16:22, 17 September 2007 (CDT) #The Imperialist 17:10, 17 September 2007 (CDT) #–Ichigo724 19:50, 17 September 2007 (CDT) #User:PanSola (talk to the ) 04:31, 18 September 2007 (CDT) #-- bcstingg (talk • ) 15:28, 18 September 2007 (CDT) #Toxik 02:56, 19 September 2007 (CDT)